Torah-Forum :: View topic - does the evil eye have any place in Judaism?

Kira · 14 Sep 2004

The rambam (chapter 11? Idolatry) explicitly explains that the black cat case is a particular example of the general category of NICHUSH which refers to ANY placing of non physical signs. There is no extrapolation here.

The Rambam in chapter 11 describes Nichush (divination), yes, but what makes you say that a red string is Nichush? Nichush is not "any placing of non-physical signs", it's any attempt to foretell the future using unrelated events.

Does anyone say, "if the lady offers me a red string, then I will go to the interview"? No, at most they'll say, "I had a successful interview, that's because of the red string I got". And that is in line with the Rambam, same chapter, Halacha 5, as NOT being forbidden.

What I said was that I have never seen criticisms of superstitions perceived as insult. Of course you have the RIGHT to disagree. But do you know of a counterexample.

I'm basing it on my own feelings on the matter. I don't do red strings or hamsas, but let's take a custom from my family: leaving shul during Yizkor. No way, no how, would I stay in shul while my parents are alive (ad 120!), I don't care what the rabbi says about saying alternate prayers, or that it is disrespectful to leave shul in the middle of services.

Pure superstition, right?

OK, now let's say Mr Roth here, having studied Judaism "intensely for 3-4 months", were to come to me and tell me that I should go back to shul because my superstitions are unbecoming a Jew, and smack of idolatry. How would I feel?

Like smacking him in the face. (Not that I would do it, but that's how I'd feel)

Hence, my suggestion to avoid causing such feelings on the part of people who are trying to help him.

From his description, it sounds like those customs are important to them, and they would not laugh it off as you suggest, but rather, be very insulted. Why take the risk?

-Kira

rivkagila · 15 Oct 2004

I have never before heard that anyone suggests that someone with two living parents should stay inside during Yizkor. *blink*

All issues of superstition aside, it strikes me as disrespectful -- both to one's living parents, and to those actually saying Yizkor. Really, people stay and say other prayers?

Wow.

martin brody · 13 Sep 2004

[quote="rivkagila"]I have never before heard that anyone suggests that someone with two living parents should stay inside during Yizkor. *blink*

All issues of superstition aside, it strikes me as disrespectful -- both to one's living parents, and to those actually saying Yizkor. Really, people stay and say other prayers?

Wow.[/quote]

Yes. It is not as uncommon as you would think. I'm told that in South Africa they did that. In London some Shuls have composed special prayers for those who have lost relatives and friends etc.
Everybody has lost somebody close, why should they be excluded from Yizkor?

Best,

Martin B

rivkagila · 15 Oct 2004

The relationship with a parent is (or at the very least, ought to be) unique. It is not the same as "somebody close".

martin brody · 13 Sep 2004

[quote="rivkagila"]The relationship with a parent is (or at the very least, ought to be) unique. It is not the same as "somebody close".[/quote]

Even Artscroll has a bit for other relatives. I'm not sure it was always the custom for those with living parents to leave. Yizkor is about all departed not just parents. I'm ambivalent on the issue. Just saying it is not a monolithic custom.

Best,

Martin B

Best,

Martin B

rivkagila · 15 Oct 2004

Just saying it is not a monolithic custom.

Fair enough.

Dr. Russell Jay Hendel · 02 May 2005

RivkaGila Thanks for the support

Kira You support me. I also leave shule during Yizkor (when my parents were alive) It is a symbolic affirmation of honor (nothing to do with superstition)

It seems you have (by your own admission) no counterexamples of people who really do superstitutious practices and are insulted by those who oppose them.

Hence my advice to rebuke these people stands. Not because I believe in insults but because I have never seen it taken this way

Russell

Dr. Russell Jay Hendel · 02 May 2005

Kira et al
Regarding the red string. We seem to dispute HOW it is used. My understanding is that people PLACE IT IN THEIR HOUSE **IN ORDER** TO HAVE THE HOUSE BLESSED. That is definitely prohibited

The permissability mentioned in Rambam 11:5 is "if a person made something a sign to an event that ALREADY HAPPENED" (e.g. since I got married my business has been blessed). However to perform an action (place a red string int he house IN ORDER TO HAVE THE HOUSE BLESSED is prohibited since it fulfills the criteria of "abstention from actions or intent on actions."

Russell

rivkagila · 15 Oct 2004

RivkaGila Thanks for the support

I still disagree with you, and claiming otherwise is disingenuous at best.

enora · 06 Jul 2006

oh man, you want to find someone insulted, come to a moroccan shul....

Dr. Russell Jay Hendel · 02 May 2005

RivkaGila

That was unlady like and uncalled for (To say you still disagree and I was trying to be disingenious) I was referring to your last post. This is the statement that I thanked you for your support (You dont consider this a matter of superstition and therefore it cant be used to refute my general idea.

Quote from RivkaGila supporting me

I have never before heard that anyone suggests that someone with two living parents should stay inside during Yizkor. *blink*

All issues of superstition aside, it strikes me as disrespectful -- both to one's living parents, and to those actually saying Yizkor. Really, people stay and say other prayers?

Wow.

Peace!
Russell

rivkagila · 15 Oct 2004

I did not say that I did not consider it a question of superstition. I said that I was leaving that issue aside and looking at other problems I saw. Please stop twisting my words to suit you.

yael_1 · 10 Oct 2004

I have never before heard that anyone suggests that someone with two living parents should stay inside during Yizkor. *blink*

Ummm ,here in NL the old Dutch custom was to say Yizkor silently (each for ones own relatives ). which meant it was over rather quickly.
A stampede through ( esp the bigger ) shuls through the door and back within some minutes was not what the community did like, so one stayed ( and the Dutch Jews who know this custom still stay ) in place.

( Sorry to tell this only now , it is a bit belated , but I was not here extensively last night )

rivkagila · 15 Oct 2004

It always interests me to learn different minhagim. Somehow this is one I never covered in any of my halachah classes. Wink

Kira · 14 Sep 2004

Rivka & Russell - I see that there were misunderstandings, but I see no reason to believe that any of them were intentional on either side. Remember, it's a very limited medium.

Russell, as far as I'm concerned, staying in for Yizkor is entirely superstitious and against Halacha. In what way does it show respect to one's parents, except that this is their custom?

The fact that you reject my example as not being superstitious enough to qualify is in no way proof that I do not have an example to bring, or that no example exists. PERSONALLY, I do not have many superstitious customs that I'm aware of, nor am I part of a community that does.

Enora is, and she already told you what would happen if someone were to criticize their customs (perhaps you missed it, it was a short note).

We seem to dispute HOW it is used. My understanding is that people PLACE IT IN THEIR HOUSE **IN ORDER** TO HAVE THE HOUSE BLESSED. That is definitely prohibited

That does not follow. Yes, the Rambam allows things in retrospect only, but he very carefully leaves out this case, which in no way is "divination". Divination would be "if this string gets torn, then I will not do action X".

That is not the case with the red string. That is why it does not say anywhere that it is forbidden.

I'm sure that the Rambam didn't like it any more than you and I do.

-Kira